The Bible Specifically Says Sodom Wasn’t About Homosexuality

By Morris M. on Monday, January 27, 2014
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“Reading the story of Sodom as being about homosexuality is like reading the story of an axe-murderer and saying it’s about an axe. ” —Jay Michaelson

In A Nutshell

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has been used to justify homophobia for centuries. A brief aside in Genesis that involves God burning four cities to the ground for crimes of immorality, it’s brought up anytime someone mentions gay rights as way of showing just how much God hates homosexuals. Too bad then that other parts of the Bible specifically state the Sodomites were firebombed for being arrogant rich windbags who hated the poor.

The Whole Bushel

In a book that’s almost overflowing with controversy, perhaps no other biblical text is as controversial as Genesis 18–19. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, it recounts how God annihilated four of the ancient Cities of the Plain in a fit of divine wrath for the presumed crime of homosexuality. “Presumed” because God never actually states why he’s blowing up thousands of people; but the last act of the Sodomites before their fiery death is to try and rape three male angels, so the assumption is that homosexuality is the trigger. At least, it is if you’ve never bothered to read the rest of the Bible.

See, if you flip forward to Ezekiel 16:49–50, God suddenly makes it very clear why he chose to raze Sodom to the ground. In full, this little baby reads:

“Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

Now, clearly “detestable things” could well include some man-on-man action, but it comes pretty far down the list, remains ambiguous, and is a bit overshadowed by the unequivocal hatred of arrogant rich people radiating like nuclear fire from the text. Then there’s Jeremiah 23:14, which strongly suggests that the “detestable thing” was committing adultery. By the time we get to Amos 4:1–11, the sin is once again being rich and refusing to help the poor and needy.

In fact, the only Biblical reference which seems to directly support the “God hates gays” theory is Jude 1:7, which says the Sodomites were destroyed for “sexual immorality and perversion.” But even that could mean adultery, or sex before marriage, or masturbation, or any of the other million and one things the Bible condemns elsewhere. As Jay Michaelson once amusingly wrote, “Reading the story of Sodom as being about homosexuality is like reading the story of an axe-murderer and saying it’s about an axe.” Except in this case it should be about an axe murderer who really hates the uncharitable rich.

Show Me The Proof

Story of Sodom and Gomorrah
Ezekiel 16:49–50
Jeremiah 23:14
Amos 4:1–11
Jude 1:7

  • 1DireWolf

    Maybe it wasn’t that the men were homosexual, but that they were rapists.

    • Patriotic Dane

      Maybe they were both….

      • Spartacross

        I am sick and tired of people having to resort to Leviticus in order to explain why homosexuality of a cardinal sin. No one ever reads the New Testament anymore?

        1 Corinthians Ch. 6: Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [:passive homosexuals], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [:active homosexuals],10
        Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

        And if the punishment of the Old Testament (stoning to death) seems harsh, you should know that the New Testament punishment is even harsher: God leaves you to the abyss of your own thoughts and if you remain unrepentant to the very end, He excises you form His body. And the pride you selected becomes your eternal hell.

        • ddrddrddrddr

          Inherit how? Maybe they get to live in heaven, just won’t have ownership or administrative rights. Or maybe they go somewhere else different from Hell to be with other gays, since it says they don’t inherit the kingdom of God but doesn’t also say they receive damnation.

          • Spartacross

            You did notice the part about revilers, right?

          • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

            Did you notice the part about covetousness?

        • Karin Love

          The original meaning of ‘effeminate’ and ‘abusers of themselves with mankind’ doesn’t in ANY way mean what you think it means. If you are going to interpret the bible, at least understand the meaning of the words as to how they pertained to the language of the time they were written. It is disingenuous to apply modern meaning to ancient terminolgy to fit your own personal beliefs.

          • Spartacross

            I am afraid it does mean exactly what you read.
            You see, the New Testament was written originally in common Greek and I can read the original text.

            Α’ Προς Κορινθίους, 6ο Κεφάλαιο: “μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι, οὔτε
            εἰδωλολάτραι, οὔτε μοιχοὶ, οὔτε μαλακοὶ [1], οὔτε
            ἀρσενοκοῖται [2], οὔτε πλεονέκται, οὔτε κλέπται,
            οὔτε μέθυσοι, οὐ λοίδοροι, οὐχ ἅρπαγες βασιλείαν Θεοῦ οὐ
            κληρονομήσουσι”.

            [1] Mαλακοὶ (malaki) means “effeminate homosexuals” (if you ever had any Greek friends, this is the root of the most common Greek swear word )
            [2] Aρσενοκοῖται (arsenokite) means exactly “men who lay with/onto men”.

            If you want to find “application of modern meaning to ancient terminology” refer tho another Knowledgenuts article trying to persuade the ignorant that Jesus blessed homosexuality based on the mistranslation of the Greek word παις (pais) not as “boy” or “servant” (which is correct) but as “lover” which is a meaning nowhere to be found in any text of the Hellenistic era.

          • Karin Love

            And I am saying that those words didn’t mean the same thing when they were written as they do now. The condemnation you’re talking about meant pederasty…not homosexuality.

          • Spartacross

            “Άρρεν”(name)= man, “κοίμαι”(verb)= lay. From this: “Aρσενοκοῖται = “men who lay with/onto men”
            In contrast, “pais”= boy, “έρως”=physical love. So “παιδεραστία” = “physical love towards boys”.

            This is not my personal interpretation or understanding. People ever since the 1st Century AD, when (from Babylon to Gibraltar) Common Greek was as common as English is today, have all understood the same meaning.

            So, no room for any misinterpretation, I am afraid.
            If the Holy Text would want to convey pederasty, it would had used that word.
            It goes without saying the pederasty is an even more grievous sin, mind you!

          • Karin Love

            You can say it and believe it as much as you want…it still doesn’t make it true. Can you post what literature you’re getting this from?

          • Spartacross

            That was the first thing I did:
            The Holy Bible, First Epistle to Corinthians, Chapter 6.

          • Karin Love

            And most scholars say that Paul’s use of that term, as defined by the meaning of it at that time, did not mean homosexuality. In fact, even when that term was used in later greek texts it is very clear that it didn’t mean homosexuality. You are using the way it’s defined today and applying it to Pauline times. It’s just another misinterpretation of the bible…like the mistranslation of the ‘virgin birth’ or the parting of the..Red Sea and many more.

          • Spartacross

            If you, similarly, google the word “heresy” you will find out it means “to choose and separate”.
            As in, choosing what passages of the Holy Bible one is willing to accept and separating them from the uncomfortable ones.

            Anyone is free to do so. It is not on their best interest though.

          • :P

            Hahaha your hilarious,
            Love to see you make that statement after checking your closet for 100% cotton, cause poly blends are also abominable.
            Sorry, I chose not to seperate the bible :O

          • max

            Again it seems that Karin Love is making a point about the different ways in which the term homosexuality is interpreted applied and lived within these different cultures. The question that remains unanswered is the following: Was homosexuality as it was practiced in the Roman world condemned because of the plumbing? Or did it have to do with the types of social distributions of power and intimacy that all of these extramarital (hetero and homo) sexual relations allowed? Was it some combination of both? Indeed the historical traces of same sex relationships (sanctioned and unsanctioned) would suggest that indeed there might be room within these text for the affirmation of certain types of same sex relationships.

          • Karin Love

            And you said “if the holy book wanted to convey pederasty, it would have used that word.”
            The holy book also never uses the word homosexual, but you have taken the liberty to assume that is what’s being conveyed? Interesting.

          • Spartacross

            “Aρσενοκοῖται” is the Greek word for homosexuals.
            It cannot get any clearer than that.

          • Karin Love

            If you can produce anything that says ‘malakos’ means “effeminate homosexual” in regards to the time these bible passages were written, that would be great. And from an unbiased spurce.

          • Alonzo S. Cruz

            You see, the New Testament was written originally in common Greek:

            Makes sense considering every person that wrote a book in the bible was in Rome. Yeah, it was originally written in Greek. Not hebrew like the people who wrote it or even Latin since they were in Rome. Greek. Interesting.

          • Spartacross

            Look it up before you embarrass yourself any further.

          • Dumas911

            dude he is right. The “Romans” even spoke Greek.

          • max

            Perhaps what Karin Love is getting at is that beyond the plumbing, the concept of homosexuality as it has come to be defined and lived in our culture did not exist in the culture of ancient Rome. Indeed what seems to be missing from your masterful discussion of the terminology is the ways in which those words functioned within Roman and Greek culture. And it is this cultural lens which is so important to understanding how the type of same sex relationships that we mean when we talk about heterosexuality are absent from the Latin and Greek uses of the terms that we translate as “homosexual” “same sex” etc.

        • Michael McCarol

          Instead of bitching about it write an article about why god truly hates gays and you can enlighten us.

        • TheWrathofDog

          Interesting that Jesus tells us to judge not lest we be judged, and Paul helpfully provides a laundry list of the damned.

          • Culture Vulture

            I’ve always interpreted it this way: Jesus tells us not to judge because in theology ultimate judgement is God’s. As fallible people we can’t fully understand a person like God would be able to. Thus, it is not our call to judge a person only based on their sins. One of the biggest challenges of Christain theology is the idea of loving the sinner but hating the sin, and the gay rights debate has really seen that come forth.
            A perfect example of the story of Jesus and the woman taken in adultery. If you’ll remember the Jewish leaders wanted to stone her and Jesus said something along the lines of: “He who is without sin should cast the first stone.” Then he told the woman to go and sin no more.
            Was Jesus giving the ok to be promiscuous? Of course not. The teachings are clear. Adulterers don’t go to heaven. Nonetheless, Jesus loved this woman. What he was teaching was that we must love everybody and not condemn people in our minds. But as he taught many times sinners need to repent of their sins. Whether or not the Bible condemns homosexuality is not the point. Christians need to show love toward all mankind, but they must have fear of sin. And that is where the problems come. People like the Westboro baptist church focus their hatred on the people, not the sin, and in turn give Christians a bad reputation.
            As for Paul, it is important for believing Christians to know what sins would keep them out of heaven. He wasn’t giving a laundry list of people that we can judge, he was telling us what we need to watch out for in our own life, sort of like.. Don’t become any of these people.
            The moral of the story. Don’t judge people. Love all, but for Christians: Know the doctrine and don’t sin.

          • max

            Your characterization of Westboro is not quite accurate. The fact is that while their rhetoric is indeed hateful and hurtful, to say that it is a manifestation of their “hatred” is to misunderstand the ways in which they couch it in terms of their prophetic mission and burden of love that Christ has placed on them as his followers. (There is something prophetic in the way that Westboro scandalizes and shocks and offends through the use of their homophobic rhetoric). The words of Ezekiel come to mind, For flavor here are some quotes from Ezekiel 13 which would seem to be the type of rhetoric that WBC might latch onto: “Your prophets, Israel, are like jackals among ruins.”"Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: In my wrath I will unleash a violent wind, and in my anger hailstones and torrents of rain will fall with destructive fury.” Or “Gentle Jesus meek and mild” in Matt 23: “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” And then there’s the example of Jesus himself violently clearing the temple. Now I do not offer these examples as some sort of defense of WBC, nor am I saying that the Biblical passages are exactly the same as the homophobic slurs used by WBC. But what I am saying is that their use of them is- from their point of view done in the spirit of prophecy. Why is this important. I think it is important because it is by understanding where they are coming from that Christians can effectively respond to them in ways that may indeed sway them- and if you’ve at all followed the story of the WBC you know that this has indeed happened. A number of younger Phelpp’s have left the cult and have raid their voices in opposition to WBC’s message.

          • Deus_Imperator

            Except paul never met jesus so i really dont get why anyone cares what he has to say, especially when it all runs nearly directly counter to the teachings of christ.

          • Spartacross

            Let me guess: you do not actually read the Bible and especially not the New Testament.

            Paul is actually the writer of what is known as the Hymn to Love (1 Corinthians, 13). He had been persecuted like no other and eventually put to death because of his beliefs and not once did he accuse his tormentors, you think he would… “”provide a laundry list of the damned”"”?

            The Entire Holy Bible is a road map to salvation and eternal life of both body and soul. Pointing out the dangers and the consequences of one’s decisions and actions are acts of love.

          • Supernova

            The authors were all secondary authors. The authors themselves do not condemn anyone, just as Jesus instructed. God is the judge. No one person has the right to condemn another person, that includes those who tell people they will go to hell because they are homosexual.

        • max

          Well said! I’ve often contended that if one truly understands Christ’s message (as communicated here, through Paul, one would quickly be disabused of the whole “Gentle Jesus meek and mild” fantasy. Indeed Christ’s message, as you suggest is, for those who do not fall in line with the will of the Almighty (and who don’t do so out of complete love for him), infinitely more unforgiving, brutal and sadistic than the worst Old Testament violence. At least under the regime of the God of the Old Testament your suffering ended with your death. The New Testament God devises ways to torture those who fall afoul of him that are at once more intimate and more infinite.

          • Spartacross

            When you bought your car and you opened the glove compartment and found the manual explaining what needs to be done for your car to keep working properly, did you feel…constrained or even violated by the manufacturer? Did you get angry at them for trying to protect you? Did you throw the manual out the window and yell “I will drive this car over sharp rocks, never check the oil and tire pressure, ignore all warnings and red lights and never, ever, bring it in for those tune ups!”?

            God is neither vindictive nor ruthless. He only gave us His law to help us avoid the worse consequences of wrong decisions. You are, indeed, free to make any decision you deem best. You want to drive your car doing the exact opposite of the manual instructions? Who is to stop you? Just do not expect to avoid the consequences. Mercedes is not going to come out to find and punish you. You will have ruined your car all by yourself.

            Because you and me, we are not Gods to avoid the consequences of our actions.

          • max

            Forgive me, I don’t quite follow your analogy. The problem being that the car manual is designed to help me get the most out of something that I decided to purchase. The Bible- if it is any sort of manual- was designed by the creator to help his subjects bring glory and pleasure to him. Furthermore unlike a car which the customer can choose to buy or not buy, God’s creation was given no choice about being brought into being, a being which has built into it a decision that they are compelled to make- either accept the terms of this benevolent divine being or face “eternal hell.” If this were indeed a car dealership- and the terms being offered were equivalent to those on offer from God- i would high tail it to another dealership.
            Finally, I find your final statement a bit troubling and I’m not quite sure what you meant by it: when you say that “we are not Gods to avoid the consequences of our actions” you seem to be implying that one of the things that makes God God is that he can avoid the consequences of his actions, a characteristic that would make the concept of God that you have offered even more troubling.

          • Spartacross

            The car manual is given to you by the manufacturer to help you avoid the most common mistakes that will end in unnecessary pain and expenses. Of course, you can still ignore it. And suffer the consequences.

            In fear of sounding like a rebellious 13-year old in the process of acquiring logical thought, no, we were not asked whether to come into existence or not. However, we are asked what we decide to do with it. Ever since Adam and Eve, choices and their consequences have been at the heart of things.

            You truly imagine God to be in desire or even need of our…worship?
            God has absolutely no need of our admiration, obedience, prayers or even our mere existence. WE are the ones who need them. That is why, out of love, He gave us the instructions. For us to find our way back to Him and take the first steps on our own. And He then runs towards us. But only if you want Him to.

            Because there is a second dealership in town. It does not actually make anything and the owner is not allowed to drive. Yet he encourages anyone who would listen to ignore the car’s manufacturer and do as they please. He even promises that no harm will come to the car.

            He has been making the same promises ever since the Garden of Eden.

        • Gary Morin

          The “New Testament” is irrelevant – the whole world isn’t Christian – to oh, so many of us. Don’t assume your sequel is the clincher. Baruch HaShem, I’m Jewish :)

    • Lisa 39

      From what i remember about that story those people were doing all kinds of sinning, it wasn’t just about gay sex, more like a rave with no inhibitions or rules.

    • TheStupidityofLiberals

      The majority of male rapists are actually homosexual.

      • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

        Show us proof and give us some citations from reliable resources…and remember pulling out of your ass is not a reliable resources, you might like swallowing your own shit but the rest of us don’t.

      • Karin Love

        That is 100% false.

        • TheStupidityofLiberals

          Actually, it’s merely just utter logic. Homosexual men are individuals that gain a sense of pleasure from partaking in and witnessing acts of sexual deviancy. Homosexual men relish sticking their genitalia in other men’s buttholes. To homosexual rapists, boys have the same amount of sexual opportunity as grown adult men.

          • Ghidoran

            And you wonder why people don’t take homophobes seriously.

          • Paul Hanson

            Rape is a power play. People rape to intentionally deprive someone of their body and privacy in the most invasive way possible.

          • Gary Morin

            You are one of the stupidest of monkeys who seem to have learned how to use a keyboard. even heterosexually-biased agencies such as the FBI and police departments own up to the evidence that the overwhelming majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men (and aren’t we seeing more and more women, as well, lately). Further, 40% of adult heterosexuals engage in anal intercourse. You don’t know crap, so any opinion you have is irrelevant and invalid. Why don’t you go read a book – and one that just might challenge your assumptions and biases.

      • Alonzo S. Cruz

        Where did you come up with that? I did an actual count from the website in my state and 96% were Trogs! This includes pedophiles. Check your facts.

  • Joseph

    Does this article have a point? A lot of these articles on this site seem to be, “We can’t really prove that’s what this means, but we want you to believe it anyway”. I have nothing against homosexuals, but come on, now Morris is interpreting the bible for us. I guess it’s not any worse than claiming to know the truth about independence day.

    • Karin Love

      And YOU are interpreting it to fit your personal beliefs. Go and look up what the ACTUAL MEANING of certain words meant at the time they were written and then tell me whose interpretting the bible incorrectly.

      • Joseph

        What are you even talking about?

        • Karin Love

          I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant. My bad.

          • Joseph

            Oh, I didn’t understand. I think you must have misunderstood. I wasn’t trying to interpret it at all. I was just complaining about Morris interpreting it. The articles here seem to be less about knowledge and more about promoting whatever opinion they happen to have at the time.

          • Karin Love

            I gotcha…this article, though, is about the destruction of Sodom NOT being about homosexuality…andthe writer is correct..the original text says nothing about homosexuality.

          • Gary Morin

            “My bad”? Use proper English, instead of some ghetto-turned-hipster slang.

          • Karin Love

            Really? I was apologizing for misunderstanding someone and you are jumping in two weeks later to spout some pompous comment about grammar? Lighten up. A lot.

          • Gary Morin

            two weeks late? Sorry, but I’ve made a conscious decision not to troll the internet – too much Reich-wing crap in the name of religion, and that’s just too frustrating and depressing. IF you notice, I also up rated your comments. I simply believe that HOW we communicate is as important as what we’re trying to communicate – look at all the tea party protest signs that contain so many misspellings, which just reinforces how uneducated and ignorant they come across. I’m not saying that one has to be articulate in order to be educated and rationale – only that people do get judged, rightly or wrongly, on how they write.

          • Karin Love

            I just find it odd that you would focus on a bit of terminology you don’t like rather than the content of the message…which was an apology.

    • Lisa 39

      I thought morris thinks the bible is just a bunch of stories? If he’s not a believer then why did he write this?

      • Joseph

        It was probably so he could add this line “it’s brought up anytime someone mentions gay rights as way of showing just how much God hates homosexuals”. I’m assuming the rest was fluff.

        • Lisa 39

          O i see, thank you joseph, i’m going to share something i saw the other day that i thought was super funny,
          Gay marriage is now being legalized
          pot is now being legalized
          in the bible it says if a man lay with another man he will be stoned
          we were just misinterpreting it.

  • http://www.schvenn.net Schvenn

    “In fact, the only Biblical reference which seems to directly support the “God hates gays” theory ”

    Incorrect. Leveticus 18:22 and 20:13 clearly mention that homosexuality is not permitted under Hebraic law. The latter indicates the punishment for it is death. I believe there might be others, but I think those two are pretty much the strongest.

    • Joseph

      Why do you hate those children? It’s not their fault.

      • Lisa 39

        Schvenn didn’t say he hates the kids, only the hate mongering.

        • Joseph

          LOL, I get tired of people whining about the Westboro church every time religion is mentioned. There can’t be more than 40 of them. They’re racist, homophobic and probably inbred. I was just making a joke because his comment make it look like he’s directly talking about the children.

          • Lisa 39

            O sorry, my sense of humor doesn’t kick in til around 8:30 on weekdays, that’s when the coffee officially kicks in, i agree about the inbred westboro people, they are irrational and make no sense at all, anybody who hates in the name of god – any god, is messed up. Its a bad case of the sheep following the wrong shepherd.
            Stupid smart phone lol

          • Joseph

            Yeah, those people are messed up. I don’t understand how people can base their opinion of Christianity on Westboro though.

          • Lisa 39

            Slick fast talking leaders and blind sheep, sometimes when you’re looking for something even if you’re not sure what it is, the smarmy snake charmers can hawk their wares real pretty.

      • http://www.schvenn.net Schvenn

        Obviously, it’s not the children I hate, but the WBC as an organization. Although…that one kid does look like kind of a snot-nosed brat. Maybe I do hate them. :)

        • Joseph

          It was a joke because it looked that way. “Don’t even get me started on these hatemongers…” right afterward you have a picture of children lol. Anyway, I hate to see any talk about that hate group. They’re just inbred morons that people should shun.

    • Guest

      pity for these children, do they even understand what they’re fighting for?

    • cire

      i pity for these children, do they really understand what they’re fighting for?

      • Lisa 39

        No they don’t, they’re doing what their parents say is right, parents that are haters raise their kids to be haters.

      • Patriotic Dane

        Poor kids, they really don’t know what they’re fighting for…

      • Kate Cooley

        They don’t. There’s a high instance of, upon realizing what the heck’s going on as adults, them leaving Fred Phelps’ Crazy-a-Thon for lives in the real world. Some even advocating for tolerance. Including his own granddaughter.

        • ddrddrddrddr

          There’s some instance of. Doesn’t happen very often because to become independnet, they pretty much have to give up everything and everyone they knew.

        • Lisa 39

          Wait, is fred phelps the guy on tv with the big controversy over something he said on a show the leader of the westboro church?

          • Kate Cooley

            If he looks like Mr. Burns in a cowboy hat, yes.

          • Lisa 39

            O snap, why would anyone allow that whack job to have a tv show? Thank you kate, i don’t watch tv, its pretty crappy these days.

          • Kate Cooley

            It is. I wasn’t aware he had his own show, only that he showed up to “class up” those of others.

          • Lisa 39

            Don’t quote me on his own show, i thought that was what i heard, i don’t see how he could spruce anything up lol

        • P5ychoRaz

          Did you say Fred Flintstone?

      • P5ychoRaz

        Does any child truly understand anything? As soon as you turn your head, they are instinctively going to test their boundaries themselves. To assume that these children will be unable to form their own opinions on gays when they grow up is foolish. If what we believed as children translated directly to adulthood, we’d have a country full of astronauts, rock stars and princesses. Judging these kids this young is unfair.

        • Lisa 39

          Hi p5ychoraz, nobody’s judging the kids, we feel sorry for them, you do have an awesome point about them growing up and forming their own opinions, i hope they do.

    • Spartacross

      God does not hate gays. There is not a single verse that can support this.
      He does warn against the consequences of promiscuity, both heterosexual and homosexual thought.

      • Culture Vulture

        Yes thank you for this

      • http://www.schvenn.net Schvenn

        Not entirely true. Deuteronomy 18:12, when talking about looking to magic, omens, fortune-telling, and so on, says that “Anyone who does these things is detestable.” Those are pretty strong words and denote a level of hatred, not just disappointment. I mention this for two reasons.

        First, you are correct that there is no verse that directly indicates that He hates homosexuality, but putting someone to death for practising it is pretty strong. Also yes, all forms of promiscuity are unacceptable and yes, many violations of Hebraic law carry the death penalty.

        (My original point to the author of course, was that there are actually several places that homosexuality is condemned, not just the ones mentioned in the article.)

        Second, as we’ve seen in the previous verse, there is at least one instance in the Bible wherein hate is expressed for people who engage in certain activities. Usually, the laws just mention that a certain act is detestable. In the above mentioned verse however, the actual person is said to be detested for practising it.

        This helps to differentiate the severity of various sins, from being disappointed in them, to detesting them; from being unclean for a certain length of time, to being put to death. So, I agree with you that “God does not hate gays”, but do not agree with you that any form of hatred is not Christian.

        Hatred in the form of righteous indignation is expected and repeatedly demonstrated, such as when pagan temples or idols were destroyed by various people in the Hebrew Scriptures, or even when Jesus tipped over the tables in the temple and called the scribes “offspring of vipers”. This strong sense of conviction is demonstrated in both the “old” and “new” covenants. So, even if you believe that Hebraic law does not apply to Christians, there is certainly a lot of consistency between both and that includes hatred.

        I think it safe to say therefore, that hatred, while not unreasoning and seething in the way that most people will understand it, does exist within Christian standards.

        • Spartacross

          Behavior resulting in unpleasant and irreversible consequences, warnings not to associate with such people in order to protect oneself and hatred are quite different things.

        • Supernova

          1 John 4:20 “If anyone says, “I love God”, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.”

          1 John 2:9 “Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.”

          Proverbs 26:24-26 “Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart; when he speaks graciously, believe him not, for the are seven abominations in his heart; though his hatred be covered with deception, his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.”

          1 John 3:15 ” Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”

          You said that you don’t agree that any form of hatred is not Christian, and that hatred exists within Christian standards. Christians are clearly instructed to not hate anyone for anything. And using Jesus tipping over tables in the temple as an example to justify your claim of hate within Christianity – not an example at all! You would have been better off using modern day examples of “Christians” like the parents of the children in the photo you posted – you know, those with just as limited knowledge of The Bible as you apparently do.

          • http://www.schvenn.net Schvenn

            Too bad you’re too afraid to challenge me with your real name, but instead hide behind an anonymous post. I would clean house if we went toe to toe on Biblical knowledge.

            Zeal and Righteous Indignation are love of what is right and hatred for what is wrong are very much Christian qualities. That however, is off topic.

            However, since you like to quote scriptures to prove your point, I’ll throw another your way, just for the fun of it. Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and
            children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person
            cannot be my disciple.”

            Set. Game. Match.
            LOL

  • Honza Petrucha

    The King that those cities rebelled against burned them to the ground. No God.

    • Joseph

      I guess there has to be at least one asshole.

  • https://soundcloud.com/arjan-hut Arjan Hut

    Homophobia is human, not divine.

    • registan

      Homophobia doesn’t exist. It is a label people use to try to intimidate others into accepting the idea that homosexuality is normal and acceptable in society. I am against homosexuality and disagree with it strongly, but certainly not afraid of gays as the label tries to imply. As an example, think of all the things in your life you are against and disagree with (a certain political ideology, a religion, a way of life, etc.) does that mean you are afraid (phobic) of all of those things you disagree with? I think not. I can safely say I have made my point.

      • Kenneth Browning

        Maybe you should read what homophobia means, it’s not simply just fear. The definition of homophobia is: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against. Yes, homophobia does exist. I can safely say you’re wrong.

        • Lisa 39

          See that, your response to registan was way better than mine, i’ll bet you googled! (I just read your response to someone else about google, i gave you an upvote!)

          • Kenneth Browning

            I hadn’t even seen your response lol. I’ve had that same argument with many people though, but at one point did google it lol.

          • Lisa 39

            I’m not sure mine posted yet, i’m fairly new to the internet and its ok, google can be fun, my kids got me a smart phone for my birthday last year so i could stop being a dinosaur, their words not mine lol, i do google things i read about here on lv and kn, i’ve seen some cool things, i think our friend will probably respond to you before me, good luck, i’ll watch for that conversation!

      • Lisa 39

        Hi registan, you have made your point and it does make sense, i think homophobic has more of a slang meaning referring to people who hate gays not actually fear them, not trying to argue, just saying…

      • Gary Morin

        I don’t refer to anti-equality persons as homophobic – I call them what they are – assholes.

  • 63Jax

    another homo propaganda list! as much as you try to make us think homosexality is absolute normal as much you’ll fail.

    • Alex

      I had a read through of your other comments on various forums. Youre literally an idiot.

      • 63Jax

        which forums, sweetheart? you little boy lover, lol

    • Kenneth Browning

      Whats “normal?” Because many other species practice homosexuality.

      • 63Jax

        we cannot compare ourselves with animals, they act on instinct and they cannot discern, we have more mind than that. just because it exists and it’s becoming more and more usual doesn’t make it normal.

  • Brother John

    Come on, Morris. No serious person insists that “God hates gays;.” It’s just those Westboro Baptist idiots. Christianity properly expressed stresses redemption, repentance, and forgiveness. The sin is in the act, not in the “being gay.” We all have our crosses to bear: depression, dyslexia, irrational fears, or a predilection for unhealthy (let us acknowledge it) sexual practices. What one does about these afflictions is what matters.

    • sudaki

      Whether or not serious people insist this, there is a general
      cultural “knowledge” that Sodom was about, well sodomites committing
      sodomy. Similar to the confusion about the story of Onan being about
      onanism (masturbation). Plenty of people who aren’t Christian and
      haven’t read or studied the text just hear the abbreviated version of
      the story and assume that’s what it’s about. I think it’s a useful
      enough bit of knowledge.

      The healthiness and morality
      you attribute to certain sexual practices is your business; the point
      being made is that the destruction of Sodom was not really about sexual
      practices.

      • Karin Love

        Exactly!

    • lbatfish

      JUST those Westboro Baptist idiots? Does their parish now extend into Uganda, Nigeria, and dozens of other countries where gay sex is forbidden (often for religious reasons)?

      http://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

  • sanstache

    jews suck baby cock

    • Jimmy

      That’s an interesting hypothesis. How wise you must be to bring up such an enlightening point.

      • sanstache

        it’s true

  • Karin Love

    If anyone who is so willing to condemn homosexuality because of “what the bible says” actually took the time to understand what the translations mean, they would know that the word ‘malakos” which has been translated to ‘effeminate’ meant ‘soft’ unwilling to work hard’ ‘lovers of lavish things’ and those prone to weakness. It was NEVER meant to mean homosexuality in ancient Hebraic language OR in the Greek translation. And ‘defile themselves with mankind’ meant prostitution.
    When ancient meanings of words in the bible are miscontrued to fit modern definitions, the actual message is lost.

    • Spartacross

      You are mistaken. The New Testament was originally not written in Hebrew but in the simplest form of Greek (koini or Common). So, there was never a chance of mistranslating from “ancient Hebraic”.

      When the Holy Book refers to prostitution (either in the sense of exchanging sexual acts with money or engaging sexually with a person one is not married to) It uses the word “πορνεία”. If one of the persons involved is married to someone else, then It uses the word “μοιχεία” (adultery).

      Ιn contrast, “ἀρσενοκοιτία” means “male homosexuality”.

      • Karin Love

        And that is why I wrote “in the greek translation.” And are you actually saying that the translated version(s) if the bible used the same terms to describe certain things? MANY terms were used and it STILL doesnt mean that “malakos” meant homosexuality. It simply doesn’t.

        • Spartacross

          And you know this as either as a classical linguist or a native Greek speaker?

          Wishing for something to be true, does not make it so, I am afraid.

          • Kenneth Browning

            Or you know, you could simply use that gadget you used to post on here, because you know you can do other things with it too. Like web searches. On your browser, type in the web address http://www.google.com, then on google, type in malakos. Then hit the search button. It’s truly amazing.

          • Karin Love

            Now that’s just crazy talk! ;)

          • Karin Love

            I know this by reading and comprehending scholars who have built solid reputations by studying this topic in depth.

          • Culture Vulture

            Look at this beautiful picture of Iceland! Does anybody want to come and hang out with me in the beautiful countryside?

    • Supernova

      Actually no “true” Bible believing Christian will condemn, simply because if they are truly Christian, they know their Bible well enough to know that God explicitly says He is The Judge, and we are all equal in His eyes and have no right to condemn people to hell for their sins. The people you are describing don’t need to take the time to study translation, they need to take the time to just read the Bible properly.

  • lnsok

    What does it matter??? Whether or not someone chooses to believe in a book and live it down to the letter is up to them! God also preaches love and says not to judge others, but has that made its way into this argument from the christian standpoint? No, because people feel the right to pick and choose which parts of the bible they feel that other people are supposed to abide by. The bible is not a rule book for christians to enforce on others! It is God’s place to judge, not anyone else’s, no matter how you choose to interpret His word. It’s the people who choose to do “God’s work” that allow the hate to continue.

    • Lisa 39

      Hi insok, i’m not trying to argue, i just have a question, the pic i just viewed looked very american, are you saying that the american christians are the haters?

      • lnsok

        Lol, no, I accidentally added it and went back to delete it, but I dont know how! (I don’t comment very often) I’m actually an American Christian myself, (from Oklahoma) and it’s been a huge debate here recently, especially since the government has considered banning ALL marriage in the state to keep gays from marrying…

        http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=24543033&catId=112032

        It’s just sickening how far some people will go just to keep rights from others. I know not all Christians feel the same way about the issue, but if being a Christian means preaching hate and intolerance, I don’t want anything to do with it

        • Lisa 39

          Ugh, i’m new to the whole electronics internet thing so i understand ‘don’t know how’ lol, i agree about the hate and intolerance, kinda makes you wonder what god they worship, there’s a big difference between that god and the one i learned about.

          • lnsok

            Exactly! I just hope things change before my kids are old enough to feel its effects on them. I can’t imagine them growing up in a world where it’s okay to disrespect people who are different from them or to act superior to others who don’t share their beliefs.

          • Lisa 39

            I never taught my kids that its ok to act like that, their dad did but they think he’s an ass for it, i’m really proud of them for the way they’ve turned out so far, they know right from wrong and stand their ground, you do the best you can mom, when they’re old enough they’ll see people for who they really are and make good choices, expect occasional bad choices tho lol how old are your kids?

        • Ian Moone

          Just click edit and you should be able to delete the picture.

      • registan

        Quit using the ghetto slang term “haters” to describe people who disagree with something.

        • Lisa 39

          I wasn’t referring to people who disagree, i was responding to a comment about people who spread hate. What do you call them?

        • Ray

          Stop hating

          • Lisa 39

            Thanks darlin!

        • Karin Love

          There are people who hate homosexuals. What would you call people like that?

    • Karin Love

      It matters because people who use the bible in order to justify their hatred of homosexuality vote against equal rights and openly discriminate against their fellow human beings. So yeah…it matters a lot.

      • Lisa 39

        I think she meant why does it matter to thoses people who fight it so hard

      • lnsok

        I just mean why does it matter what one book says about homosexuality? Not everyone reads and interprets the bible the same way or regards it as infallible human law. If that was the case, there’d be a whole lot more people screwed than just gays. As a matter of fact, there would only be a few spots in heaven reserved for those who actually followed the “rules”. And even if the people who believe that homosexuality actually a mortal sin, isn’t it God who is supposed to decide their fate? Not man… I don’t think being a hateful bigot is what God had in mind. That’s all I meant by that. If it’s wrong, then God will deal with that, in the meantime, I’m pretty sure kindness and love was a bigger message taught in the bible.

  • jihadbob

    Homosexuals are wrong. End of story.

    • Karin Love

      No, you’re wrong.

    • Chuck Jones

      what about?

  • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

    So God hates the arrogant rich…do you think that’s going to stop Christians from voting Republican, the party for the rich? No.

    Just shows us all what hypocrites the Christians truly are, they don’t even believe what their own book says about the rich and gays are just a convenient scapegoat to hate on.

    • Lisa 39

      Hi illuminati, i agree with most of what you said, i don’t think god hates, i believe the arrogant rich refers mostly to arrogant, not all christians are hypocrites but alot of them are but i think that’s the sheep blindly following the wrong shepherd.

      • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

        No. I guess you haven’t read the Prophets like Amos, Joel and Isaiah, just name a few, who call out the wealthy for being unjust and selfish. Or read the words of Jesus regarding how being poor is blessed and being rich is a one way ticket to hell. I bet you haven’t even skimmed the Epistle of James, that is James the bother of Jesus whose basic message in his Epistle is…Fuck the Rich.

        The passages in the Bible that condemn the rich are not just condemning arrogance. They are condemning the unjust rich. Arrogance and pride are just symptoms of the disease not the cause. Like Paul said…”It is the love of money that is the root of all sorts of evil.”, but you probably never read Paul

        • Lisa 39

          Let me try to be more clear, i agree with you, its not about being wealthy, its about what you do with it, if wealthy people hoard and flaunt their money then yes that applies to them, i know a few christian couples who make tons of money and use what they need but are charitable with the rest, one couple bought a building and made it into a neighborhood rec center with free hot lunches every day for anyone who shows up, they also work at homeless shelters and bring blankets and care packages for the homeless, i don’t think they’re going to hell for that.
          I do have a helpful tip for you tho, when someone tries to have an adult conversation with you and agrees with you, attacking them isn’t the best idea.

          • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

            I am sorry.

          • Lisa 39

            Thank you illuminati, (now i get to be silly!) Because i have such a big kind heart i forgive you! Ok i’m done. So i know you don’t believe in god or at least a big magic sky daddy lol so i’m impressed that you know the bible so well, most people who are non believers haven’t even read it, did you ever believe or think its hooey but read it to be informed?

          • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

            I like to be informed about most religions…like the Taoist Sun Tzu said ; know thy enemy and thyself

          • Lisa 39

            That’s smart, it reminded me of the saying ‘keep your friends close and your enemies closer’.
            I did want to tell you tho that in your first comment you said the gays are convenient scapegoats to hate on, i agree 100%, i love it when i hear the religious leaders talking about the gay agenda, i think they just made that up, it doesn’t even make sense and most of my gay friends haven’t even heard of it. I can guarantee you that none of the gay bashers have ever spent any time in the gay community.

          • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

            At first the convenient scapegoat amongst Christian were the Jews, then they change it and started hated pagan women and burnt them to death and today it is the homosexual community. I think over time it will be regarded as just a tasteless and stupid to hate on homosexual as it is to hate Jews and pagan women.

            The gay threat is just a way some religious and political leaders incite hate and fear in order to scare people to their side of the political spectrum. It is a cynical and manipulative to say the least and I hope more Christian will open their eyes and see they are being manipulated.

            The Bible says not to fear or be anxious yet these very religious leader are inciting fear, hate and anxiety in their flocks…what kind of shepherd does that? Certainly not a good one.

          • Lisa 39

            Again, i agree 100%, i guess we’re just those quirky people capable of independant thought and informed decisions, about 15 years ago the now ex husband decided that we had to attend this church with this minister who never talked about gods love, it was all god hates everything you do and you’re all going to burn for eternity, i’m sorry but i think when you leave church you should feel love first, good about what you just learned and informed on what you need to work on, i felt like jumping off of a bridge so i quit going and wouldn’t let him take the kids, o the fireworks over that, but thats because he was a blind sheep, me? I know bs when i smell it.

          • Lisa 39

            Hey, where did you go? I was having a good time, are you just going to leave a lady hanging lol

  • The Ou7law

    Our world is doomed even if we exclude homosexuality, so whats the point bitching about it anymore

  • JenNM

    Words and phrases had different meanings hundreds of years ago. And God didn’t actually write the Bible ya know. Men wrote it after interpreting God’s words. That’s why there are so many contradictions in it. Worry about yourself and leave other peoples choices alone or you might find yourself at the pearly gates getting denied access because you backed the wrong team.

    • Supernova

      Well you are partially correct, the Bible was written by many people over a period of 1500 years. Written from different perspectives for different audiences in different styles. Minor differences are expected, but differences aren’t contradictions.

  • Chuck Jones

    I think it’s interesting that there are so many way to interpret the bible.
    Just remember that before you claim to know what God wants – even if you have the right religion, you might not be fully comprehending what God means.

    • Lisa 39

      It does say in the bible that man is not to know the mind of god.

      • lbatfish

        But even so, pretending to know the mind of God can still be a very lucrative occupation.

        • Lisa 39

          Hey ibatfish, are you referring to the wonderful manipulative self proclaimed prophets? Yeah, they’re rolling in the cash now but on judgemant day they’re going to be in deep spit, like david koresh? The waco guy or as i like to call him, the wacko guy, i know some of these people are manipulative connivers but the rest are just nut jobs.

          • lbatfish

            Or sometimes both.

          • Lisa 39

            Right? Bat shit crazy lol and dangerous.
            Nut job + greedy conniver = jim jones.

          • Lisa 39

            Right? Those are the most dangerous.
            Nut job + greedy = jim jones

      • Gary Morin

        And yet it’s amazing how many professional so-called Christians claim to know exactly what is in the mind of G-d, which of course just happens to agree with their own narrow-minded beliefs :(

        • Lisa 39

          Hi gary, you’re absolutely right, i believe they are either phonies trying to make money or sincere which makes them pompous and blind, they give christians like me (not that i claim to be good at it lol) a bad name. Actually, maybe i’m doing it right and everyone else is wrong, gary, thank you, you’ve just given me something to think about. I really do feel bad for all the people who blindly follow religious leaders who have it all wrong. If you want to hear what i believe i’ll share, or you can call me a nutjob and be done with it, or you can chat with me and then call me a nutjob :)

  • David

    Ridiculous article. The author says Sodom was not about homosexuality, but then in the article has to admit that it could have been about homosexuality because Ezekiel says they did detestable things. Yes they did, and it was homosexuality. God doesn’t wipe cities to the ground just because they are inhospitable. The Sodomities were doing something in addition that warranted the judgement. God said: The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous. And Jude points out that the sin is sexual immorality and perversion. Then we know in the story that the men had homosexual desires to such an extreme level that they wanted to rape a newcomer. So yes, Sodom WAS about homosexuality.

    • dani

      Or it was about the rape.

      • David

        Not according to the Jude passage. Some translations like the KJV even say they went after strange flesh which would indicate homosexuality.

        • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

          Then you are admitting the the Bible contradicts itself. Because Ezekiel gives a different story. If you disagree with Ezekiel and believe Jude, then it is a contradiction. So which version is the correct one?

          Cognitive dissonance awaits you.

        • confused

          I thought strange flesh was referring to beastiality?

    • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

      Ezekiel was pretty clear that the detestable things they were doing had to do with the oppression of the poor. We are not just talking inhospitable but a very deep-rooted oppression. Sodom was like what modern prisons are today, a criminal hierarchy ruled over and oppressed the weak, the rape whether it was homosexual or heterosexual had nothing to do with sex but with dominance and oppression just like in prisons today.

      If you have not read the Bible or have no knowledge of Ancient Middle Eastern culture….just don’t comment on it.

      • David

        If that’s the case then you must completely ignore Jude 1:7 which talks about SEXUAL immorality and strange flesh. You won’t even acknowledge that the men were committing homosexual acts.

        • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

          Then admit that the Bible contradicts itself because Ezekiel gives another story. Ezekiel is very clear that it was oppression of the poor that brought on the wrath.

          Which story is correct?

          • David

            Both stories are correct. Ezekiel says they did things that were detestable and an abomination. It’s the same word that is used in Leviticus which specifically calls out homosexuality as an abomination.

          • Illuminati Recruitment Agency

            No. Ezekiel names the crime and specifically says that oppression of the poor was the detestable thing, you obviously have not read the Bible.

            So which is it? You cannot have it both ways.

  • Kennon Gilson

    It’s clear that detestable things refers to oppression of the poor. That’s how I was taught.
    A lot of people make assumptions about the Bible or read poor translations such as the SJB. Some more articles like this would be welcome.

    • Lisa 39

      Hi kennon, what’s the sjb?

      • Kenneth Browning

        I’m guessing St. John the Baptist, but could be wrong.

        • Lisa 39

          I think its a book, but that’s a good guess lol i wouldn’t have thought of that.

  • albatool

    In my religion, homosexuality is a sin, but i truly dont care about someone’s sexual orientation. I dont go around telling people they should convert to my religion because their religion is wrong. It should not be any of your business what someone’s sexual orientation is. The same way it is not any of your business what my beliefs are. If it does not harm you than you should not be bothered by it. Let me tell you all those stereotypes that you hear about homosexuals are fake and dumb. To be a homosexual, you just have to be attracted to your own gender. You don’t have to act “girly” if you are gay. Also being a homosexual does not determine one’s personality. Being a homosexual is just a piece of information about someone. It does not determine if someone is kind,mean,rude, or polite. Oh and what really bothered me is how the government even considered making gay marriage illegal. The government should not get in matters this personal. Next thing we know, they will tell us how many kids we can have or not. If it doesn’t hurt ya, then it ain’t none ya damn business.

  • Ian Moone

    Who cares if the Bible actually says to hate gays or not. The Bible says lots of crazy shit. We shouldn’t follow all of it.

  • Culture Vulture

    This is why we all need to start space exploration. We are getting far too bored here on Earth. Instead of contemplating our place in the universe and attempting to discover strange new worlds we are stuck here squabbling over Greek translations and minute details. The human race has bigger and better things to worry about. We have a destiny to fulfill out in the stars and debates like this only distract us from the full capabilities of our species.

  • dasilva

    No where in the Bible is sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman condoned. Same sex relations are condemned in the OT (Judaic law) and in the new (Romans). Believing the bible does not mean you hate anyone. Those who have never been Christians have a hard time understanding the concept of loving the sinner but hating the sin.
    As for Sodom..,..being about homosexual behaviour is clear in this story. People are trying to re-write history. It’s a shame they can’t see the truth the Bible reveals about this subject.

  • Snitket

    Maybe it was all of those sins = detestability? Homosexuality included. Not real hard to understand.

  • Errkism

    People take this book seriously? Even if you are religious, you shouldn’t base your beliefs on a book that outdated.

  • UN

    this clarifies nothing it just says that on one occasion it might have stated homosexuality is not the reason for destruction while in other section it implies it might be..

  • UN

    Even in Islam their destruction is primarily due to their sexual activities and few other sins such as rape and robbery

  • Paul Hanson

    Another big issue with this story is how Lot gave his flesh-and-blood daughters to be raped instead of the angels, only to have them seduce him when he’s drunk later after the city was destroyed. Many people seem to forget those bits when they use it for political aims.

    Sending your children to suffer in the place of strangers and have them sleep with you in a drunk stupor later? Perfectly fine, but heaven forbid that you happen to have a taste for your own sex.

    Perhaps people should stop using mythology in the 21st century.

    • Supernova

      No one forgot that, difference is people who actually know the Bible know that the story of Lot is, as explained later in 1 Corinthians 10:11, an example.

      In other words, if you don’t nitpick and take things out of context and actually read and put effort in understanding, you would know that in Christian faith the OT is given as truthful account about the Biblical characters nature – their sin, their failures, good deeds etc. in order for us to discern between right and wrong.

      Its not about a bunch of “perfect characters” and everything they did was right. You read it with the assumption that the Christian Bible considers everything in it to be “righteous” and “pure”.

      • Paul Hanson

        When did I ever say anything about that? In the same story, Lot hands out his daughters to be raped and later gets raped himself by his daughters and this story is to somehow teach morality. It’s nothing about sin or perfection or anything, it’s just inconsistant.

        • Supernova

          “Sending your children to suffer in the place of strangers and have them sleep with you in a drunk stupor later? Perfectly fine, but heaven forbid that you happen to have a taste for your own sex”

          You implied that handing his daughters over to be raped is considered acceptable according to The Bible, but that homosexuality is frowned upon. YOU implied that one was okay and the other wasn’t, The Bible didn’t.

          The Bible makes it very clear that incest is wrong, rape is wrong etc. The Bible did not state that what Lot did was right. The Bible uses many such examples to show that even the righteous is capable of sin, so although The Bible teaches what is wrong and what is right, it also is clear on not condemning or passing judgement.

          • Paul Hanson

            Lot and his daughters don’t get punished for what they did at all. If incest and rape is against the Bible, than they wouldn’t've been spared. Would you be okay if a man sent his children to be raped in the place of strangers? Obviously not. Stop the apologetics and realize that the Bible is nonsense when it comes to morality.

  • OC

    I think with all cultures there will always be intolerance. But gay people can achieve some equality under the law. But as with people of color, it won’t stop all of the hatred and WILL NOT stop discrimination.

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